concerned
Posts:48
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| 04 Jul 2008 09:15:36 |
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Have I got this wrong or has Kingswells Community Council spent over £3000:00 on SPY CAMERAS which the police would not contemplate being officially involved with.
Being monitered by the police or even Aberdeen City Council is one thing, but to be SPIED ON by a Community Council, I find very concerning.
I believe we need much more precise information and openness in this matter.
Are any checks carried out on potential System Administrators?
What are the qualities and qualifications required to be a System Administrator?
What are the precise duties of a System Administrator?
"All appropriate data protection will be sourced" What does this mean in English?
Are images being recorded?
How will they be stored and used?
What is the SPY CAMERA installed at the side of Aberdein Considine watching? It is clearly not pointed at the road junction.
Who exactly are the chosen elite people, watching us mere mortals in Kingswells? |
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IanC
Posts:119
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| 06 Jul 2008 13:52:06 |
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You have some wrong information.
The police cannot get involved with the CCTV system until it is properly setup. This is being done at the moment. All the necessary paperwork is now in place, and the last thing that needs to be done is posting signs.
You should not consider the cameras as SPY CAMERAS. No one is actively monitoring anything. The cameras record footage that can be viewed by the police if there is an incident. In order to view the recordings the police have to identify a time frame within which an alleged incident is supposed to have taken place. They can only view the recording in the presence of the system administrator, or a system operator. If anything is found on the recording that can be used in evidence then a copy is made of the useful frames, and this is given to the police.
The camera at Aberdein Considine is recording car movements.
The cameras have been setup to record only essential information - for example car movements on the main road are not recorded.
Not sure where you are getting your quotes from, but any information held by KCC is subject to the Data Protection Act, which ensures that the Data is used in an appropriate manner.
The duties of a system administrator are just that - to administer the system and make sure it is in proper working order. Since the system is computer based the qualifications are in that field.
I hope the above satisfies your fears. There are no SPIES in Kingswells that I am aware of. The system will never be used unless there is an incident of some description. The system is no different to those used within the Co-op or any bank.
Ian
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alsoone
Posts:6
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| 09 Jul 2008 08:57:30 |
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The Spy Camera mounted on the side of Aberdein Considine is reportedly watching car movement, but the camera is pointing towards the woods and beyond.
A friend who would like to retain anonymity as much as possible can see the camera lens from her home and garden.
Thus the Spy Camera can watch her property, she finds this, intrusive, intimidating and an invasion of her privacy.
Can the Spy Camera be re-adjusted back towards the building it is mounted on? |
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IanC
Posts:119
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| 09 Jul 2008 09:13:26 |
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I will check the alignment tonight.
Ian |
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IanC
Posts:119
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| 09 Jul 2008 18:00:31 |
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The camera is currently faulty. It will be fixed tomorrow.
The camera is too far away from housing to see anything. The camera is fixed, and only covers the entrance to the carpark. You or your friend are welcome to come and see for yourself. You could come to the Community Centre on Monday 14th July between 8 and 10pm. If that is not convenient give me a call - see http://kwells.org/kwells3/node/26 for contact details.
Ian |
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concerned
Posts:48
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| 10 Jul 2008 06:53:00 |
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REPLY TO THE POST BY IanC OF 6th JULY 2008
"You have some wrong information".
Source : KCC minutes of Meeting Monday 12th May 2008. Item 2
The new CCTV system was demonstrated. Reg was offered the position of System Administrator but turned down the offer. This is not somthing the Police would contemplate.
Ian was appointed System Administrator. The CCTV system was registered at Stan's home address. All apprpriate data protection will be sourced.
"You should not consider the cameras as spy cameras, no one is activly monitoring anything"
Source : KCC minutes of Meeting Monday 14th April 2008 Item 6
Reg will have Live access to the system via the internet
Source : KCC minutes of Meeting Monday October 2007 Item 2
Stan asked if the Police could make use of the CCTV photos from the proposed CCTV system. These will be available to Key People via the internet.
"the camera at Aberdien Considine is recording car movements"
Anyone can see the camera is pionting elsewhere.
"Not sure where you are getting your quotes from, but any information held by KCC is subject to The Data protection Act which ensures the data is used in an appropriate manner"
Source : KCC minutes Meeting Monday 14th April 2008 Item 10
There was disscusion about whether KCC actually held any information that would be covered by DP. It was thought not, but John would check out. This would be an issue for the Council Forum.
My fears have not been satisfied and IanC's post gives rise to more questions than answers. Systems within a bank or co-op are not funded from the Public Purse and are not the same at all. There is obviously the potential to monitor the images live by the internet. Who are these Key People mentioned above? As the money comes from the public Purse, why can the web site to view the camera images not be made available to all? May even help parents to keep an eye on there children. If the internet web site to view images is kept secret then we have SPIES in Kingswells. Truthful honest and open answers must be given or KCC has no credability
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IanC
Posts:119
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| 10 Jul 2008 07:57:59 |
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Dear Concerned,
The information above was all correct at the time, but time has moved on.
It is possible to view the footage remotely by the administrator. It is not possible to make this generally available on the internet as system security will not allow this type of use. Such use would also be classed as inappropriate from a data protection stance. The use of this feature will allow the administrator to see if the cameras are working properly. I have neither the time nor the inclination to spend hours upon hours viewing this footage. Time will be limited to that nessesary for the proper operation of the system.
Data protection requirements are being complied with, the police have inspected the system and are happy with the locations of all the current cameras and the proposed locations for future cameras. The signs are up, and the system will be going live next week.
If you are concerned about what the cameras are recording contact me and I will show you that you have nothing to fear.
Ian
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Kingswells Sommelier
Posts:13
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| 11 Jul 2008 03:21:04 |
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I wonder why people are generally after giving Ian such a hard time about things. It seem in this (and e.g. the school playground) thread people can pretty much level any accusation at Ian(undemocratic etc) without having to substantiate it. Not so long ago there had to be appeals to get people to turn up to the community centre to allow the KCC to continue, so I can see we are full of concerned residents. I'm one of them who will not go, and I am happy to let Ian and the council determine the way forward for Kingswells in the way they see fit. I think I have automatically forfeited my right to have much of an opinion on the issues as I don't do anything to change it. I'm glad there are some more altruistic people in Kingswells who take an active interest in the community, and I thank them for doing it. I imagine it is a pretty thankless task, and getting a barrage of (light) abuse is really going to encourage an already underpopulated council to continue. I don't see the treatment Ian is getting as a way of encouraging more people to sign up.
Can I also suggest some people try showing their posts to some colleagues/friends as a reasonable-ness (I know it's not a word) test. Have people really got nothing better to do than worry about a camera watching them going to the shops? Do you not go into the city centre? What is actually going to happen? I occasionally show this forum to friends as it generates a laugh. |
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IanC
Posts:119
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| 11 Jul 2008 05:56:59 |
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Thanks for your post. I agree with all you say.
The problem with the forum is that folk hide behind their virtual identities and can say anything. Some identities are known to the public. It is not really a level playing field.
In KCC you have to grasp onto any positive feedback as there is little of it. KCC is a group of residents who want to make a difference. That fact is often forgotten.
Thanks
Ian |
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alsoone
Posts:6
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| 11 Jul 2008 08:43:21 |
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My friend is unwilling to go to the community Centre and I am leaving this minute on business till Wednesday. It will be sufficient if you have the camera adjusted back towards Aberdein Considine. There should not be a problem with this, if the camera is there to cover the entrance to the car Park. A one eyed man can see it is not adjusted for that purpose, and if the camera lens is not visible from her property fears will be allayed.
The camera is not fixed. Adjustment is available UP / DOWN. LEFT / RIGHT
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IanC
Posts:119
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| 11 Jul 2008 09:34:18 |
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The camera is fixed in as much as it needs an engineer out to move it. How can 'your friend' see the lens of a camera from the house when the lens can bearly make out any houses?
If 'your friend' cannot make the time to check that there is no problem, then there is little more I can do.
Sorry. |
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resident@4
Posts:10
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| 11 Jul 2008 10:55:08 |
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Sorry KingswellsSommelier, all accusations have been very detailed and substantiated.
Recently a very seniour MP stepped down so as to challenge goverment decisions which relate to personal freedoms, included were concerns about details being held, data protection, spy cameras etc.
This a serious concern and not a joking matter, you should read all the posts very carefully and you may see when IanC is asked a question, if he choses to answer, then the reply is not always accurate. trying to gain information is like pulling Teeth.
You may be happy to let IanC make decisions for you, but I am not. I know nothing of this man.
CCTV in a town centre with the police as System Administrators, is completely different to CCTV in a residential area, with a System Administrator I know nothing about, this man seems to be uncooperative to reasonable requests. When Members of KCC don't always turn up for meetings, it is unfair to demand of an older, perhaps disabled person to attend or I will ignore you. |
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IanC
Posts:119
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| 11 Jul 2008 11:53:12 |
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resident@4 I have told you before - you are welcome to join KCC and become part of the decision making process.
See you Monday.
Concerned - if there is a good reason why you can't come to the community centre then I can bring you a photo of what the camera sees. Give me a call.
To resident@4 and Concerned - neither of your issues can be resolved on this forum. You need to make contact. Despite resident@4's views I think I have bent over backwards to try to help, but I can't do any more without meeting you.
Ian |
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Kingswells Sommelier
Posts:13
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| 11 Jul 2008 13:49:04 |
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#4, you've clearly got a lot of enthusiasm for your local environment. It seems to be one of the problems with faceless communication that people can very easily get misunderstood in a way that does not happen in a face to face environment. Can I suggest (impartially) that you consider yourself for KCC? I'd be happy to have you representing me too. I'm guessing KCC need people who have the energy to get involved. You can then be involved in the decision-making process. Maybe Ian doesn't even want all the roles he has; maybe he just has to take them on as someone has to do it. From my own experience of being on various committees, there are often people very happy to sign up but will shy away from taking on responsibility for a variety of reasons. It always seemed to be the same 2-3 people of a committee of 15 taking on the roles and work. I'm not saying that is what happens with KCC (I've never been to a meeting and have no plans on attending) but I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case.
KS |
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concerned
Posts:48
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| 14 Jul 2008 10:51:46 |
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I understand the purpose of the forum is for community debate, to share information, question and discuss differences of opinion etc.
I have noted the “views” numbers on the forum, especially on the two subjects “School Playground Lights” and “Spy Cameras” It seems that other members of the community are also interested to read the matters discussed.
The last minutes of Kingswells Community Council Meetings viewable on there own website (www.Kwells.org) is April 2008.
IanC Has tried to pressurise resident@4, alsoone, and myself to attend the KCC meeting July 2008. He could then put his spin on the minutes of the meetings, which he records, and release the minutes at his convenience. I prefer an up to date open discussion if possible, which I and others can challenge if we believe it is necessary.
I or any other member of the community should be able to post a comment on the forum and IanC can choose to answer or not then any onlooker can come to there own conclusions. Surely this is good for democracy rather than only one mans comments.
Although the community council has no executive powers it does act as a representative body for the local community. Kingswells Community Council has never gone to election as there have always been more places than candidates.
How else can the community have any sort of accountability other than open discussion? and if IanC takes exception to this then, there is something very wrong. What difference would knowing the identity of the questioner? or being face to face make if the question is serious and relevant?
Many questions still need answers;
Did KCC consult the community on a CCTV system at the shops, paid for from the public purse with an individual as system administrator?
How is the use of CCTV justified in this case? CCTV is very intrusive on privacy.
Was it seen as addressing a pressing need for crime prevention?
What is the specified purpose of data processing? We still have no signs with details.
Who is the Data Controller? This is very important as an individual has the right of access to recorded images which is provided under section 7 of the 1998 data protection act. This information must be supplied in permanent form by way of a copy.
Is the position of data controller and system administrator the same? I can find no reference to system administrator on the information I have checked.
Is there a time limit on the individual who presently holds these positions?
I wonder if this system and its management have really been thought through properly.
With regard to the forum posts of IanC 11th July 2008. Under section 10 of the data protection act is the right of the individual to prevent processing which is likely to cause distress. The act also requires primarily the effect on the people recorded to be taken into account. Cameras should be sited and adjusted to ensure they do not view areas that are not of interest, such as individual’s private property.
If a camcorder with zoom can view the Spy Camera Lens from her property and garden, then the potential to spy on that person is clear. IanC can claim there is no zoom incorporated within the spy camera, or that the images can not be downloaded and magnified, but this is not accepted. To show innocuous images on a monitor or photo will not convince and the existing setting of the spy camera is not logical to view car movement. I am puzzled over the need to monitor car movement in that area. An insensitive attitude and a claim to have bent over backwards to help ring hollow. The one thing that could easily have been done quickly as system administrator is have the camera adjustment altered to allay distress, and show compassion. Surely this is worth while and will save a protracted process to have the setting altered. This is a human right, privacy matter. It is necessary for the system administrator to be considerate; a bullying attitude will not suffice.
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IanC
Posts:119
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| 14 Jul 2008 13:34:35 |
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Any reasonable person would attend a KCC meeting, or meet with the administrator to put to rest their fears.
The system was setup with thought for others and so does not invade anyones privacy.
KCC cannot consult on every decision it makes. The majority of KCC members made that decision. The whole topic was minuted for over a year. If you disagreed with the idea you could have raised it in this open forum then.
I don't have any more time to play spy games.
Debate away . .
Ian
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concerned
Posts:48
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| 16 Jul 2008 02:50:45 |
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Any reasonable person would have had the offending camera readjusted quickly, and dealt with the other matters raised in a straightforward, open and honest manner.
There are rules for the installation of CCTV systems and even IanC will have to comply eventually. The more I find out the more I am puzzled by this system. Why is a camera of such high spec necessary to monitor traffic movement entering the shop and nursery car park? Indeed why is it seen necessary to do so?
Strange that this matter was not considered important enough to warrant a consultation as it concerns all of the community who visit the shopping area. KCC have some strange priorities.
It would have been impossible to make an objection, based on the confused information available from KCC minutes. Like myself, I am sure that the vast majority of the Kingswells community expected the police to be in control of the system. Not an individual.
This is an example of a badly considered system which causes the public to loose confidence and for CCTV to loose credibility. It should be noted that many regard the right of privacy as very important, every bit as important as the other freedoms |
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Ellier
Posts:12
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| 16 Jul 2008 16:44:10 |
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| To concerned. I have read with interest your posts on the forum. Instead of complaining and critising Ian C and KCC why not put your energies to better use - why not become a member of KCC! There is nothing worse than someone who moans on and on and does nothing about it!!:P |
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concerned
Posts:48
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| 16 Jul 2008 21:38:50 |
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To Ellier, I have read your post. You sound just like IanC when he is stuck for an answer “Become a member of KCC” just like a broken record, not very original.
If you have read my posts with interest. Why are you complaining?
I believe I have put in some serious research and raised some pertinent points, but to no avail. If IanC can ignore points raised on the open forum what chance behind closed doors?
You obviously don’t agree, “sorry”.
If you read the posts on “School Playground Lights” you may conclude that decisions are taken and some people are ignored. Hence my rather frustrated tone, but complaining and criticising seemed to work for “Sam” of kingswellsyouth31. You may decide that Sam argued his case well; then again you may come to a different conclusion.
Please don’t believe I have done nothing, often criticism is very important, and can take time to be effective. I may not convince you but I don’t give up easily. |
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IanC
Posts:119
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| 17 Jul 2008 03:31:41 |
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I am confused . .
This thread was started by "Concerned". Then "alsoone" added some comments supporting a friend (presumably "Concerned") who was too timid to get involved. Then "Resident@4" added their input in their usual style.
Later posts from "Concerned" are written in the style of "Resident@4".
Question: Are you all the same person?
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The quest is for open debate, but how can this take place when the people taking part cannot be identified or held accountable for their words - oh! except for me.
The whole argument could be cleared up if those concerned viewed the pictures from the camera, but to do that they need to go to the community centre. Not an unreasonable request.
It is difficult to deal with unreasonable people.
It was only "Resident@4" who was concerned with the decision making process and was invited to join KCC to become more involved. That being said it is a fact that any resident has the right to seek mebership in KCC.
For the record: KCC meetings are not as described elsewhere in this forum. We are a friendly bunch and welcome residents who attend the meetings. There was one exception - when a resident attended shouting the odds and was received in a different manner to that normally extended to residents.
Looks to me as if the topic of this thread is not really a concern, it is just an excuse to moan. The only SPIES in Kingswells are those that seek to keep their true identity hidden.
Ian
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